Newsgroups: comp.parallel.pvm
From: jabf@ucs.ed.ac.uk (John Blair-Fish)
Subject: Break up of UK?
Organization: Edinburgh University
Date: 23 Apr 1996 15:52:52 GMT
Message-ID: <4liuck$56r@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>

[ Article crossposted from can.politics,scot.general,uk.politics,nz.general,aus.politics,alt.politics.british,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.welsh,soc.culture.scottish ]
[ Author was graeme fairbrother ]
[ Posted on Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:46:46 +0100 ]

In article <4kih6g$lrn@epsilon.qmw.ac.uk>, Matthew Huntbach
<mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> writes
>
>That is a problem with the Conservative Party, not the English people in
>general. I doubt that more than 1% of English people could care to oppose
>Scotland having its own parliament if that is what it wants. A majority of
>English people don't vote Conservative, and even those that do must surely 
>have other things on their minds than its opposition to a Scottish parliament.

Yes, I would agree that the vast majority of English people dont give a
damn and many probably think that it already is until they are woken up
again by Major. But I disagree in you perceiving that it is just the
Conservative party. I would posit that it is the governing/ruling
classes (whichever phrase you would wish to use) and most of them do
vote Tory.

>Remember that one of the reasons Scotland does not have its own parliament
>is that it has only become a big political issue in recent years, partly
>because of the growth in electoral difference between Scotalnd and England
>in those years. Go back to the 1960s and before and Scotland had a Tory/Labour
>voting split much like the rest of the UK and there was none of this "we don't
>want to be linked with Tory England" stuff.

Far too simplistic, many theoretical frameworks, have been put forward,
decline of empire, growth in centralised UK state etc., It could be
argued that the need for a Scottish Parliament reflects, that today most
decisions are made in London. In 1707, under the Treaty of Union, most
decisions which affected the common man were made in Scotland...the
nature of the state has changed.

In terms of voting habits, is nationalism arising out of a change of
voting habits or are voting habits reflecting a change in national
perspectives. For example in 1955, a majority of Scots voted
Conservative, an extremely large proportion of this group were working
class protestants, wedded to the idea of 'Unionism', voting in Scotland,
was on religous as well as class grounds. This group has melted now,
with subsequent rises in support for the SNP or Labour, Indeed the
Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party is now begginning to be
percieved as being the English Party. I would argue that changing in
voting patterns are in the main reflecting, underlying social values.
Some estimates have guessed that approx 30% of Scottish Labour voters
support independence.

But is perhaps problematic to consider that scottish nationalism is
singularly linked with the Conservatives, most rises in Political
Nationalism (ie SNP) has occurred under Labour Governments.
 
>
>: The point which I was making is that the messages coming out of (an
>: albeit small) but vocal english minority...Is that england/britain must
>: protect our cultural values against these nasty europeans and at the
>: same time saying to Scots...see you are different already, you dont need
>: a parliament to protect your values (we will do it for).
>
>I am glad you mentioned the "small but vocal". I don't thgink the right-wing
>bigots that dominate the English press are typical of English people as a 
>whole. In fact, depsite the fact that these bigots pour their propaganda into
>English homes, opinion polls tend to show that real English people express a
>surprising degree of support for the concept of Europe.

But the point which I made in my original posting is that it is these
people in the main who are manipulating/creating/putting forward images
and metaphores as to what it means to be English/British, Scots see
these images and metaphores as being non-scottish and alien. That was
the point I was making the development of specific notions of English
identity to support what is after all political ideology, backfires in
Scotland. It becomes impossible to say, this is who the English/British
are in England and say something completely different in Scotland,
without people clocking on that the snake speaks with forked tongue. 
-- 
graeme fairbrother

Turnpike evaluation. For information, see http://www.turnpike.com/


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         John Blair-Fish
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